Is it possible for kids to look at their touchpoints with medical care as empowering experiences? Adam Finkelstein, a medical student and author, shared his experiences of living with IBD from a young age, and how he coped with surgeries and doctor’s appointments as a child. Adam provides tips for helping kids develop positive associations with going to the doctor, which include building trust with healthcare professionals, being honest about what to expect during appointments, and creating a comfortable environment for kids. Adam’s book, “Up and Adam,” is a resource for children with IBD and their families.
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Episode transcript and more information at: https://bit.ly/AIBD130
[Music: IBD Dance Party]
Amber Tresca 0:00
Hi I’m Amber Tresca and this is about IBD. I’m a medical writer and patient educator who lives with a J pouch due to ulcerative colitis. It’s my mission to educate people living with Crohn’s disease or ulcerative colitis, about their disease, and to bring awareness to the patient journey. Welcome to Episode 130. Unfortunately, IBD is sometimes diagnosed in young children. The term for this is very early onset IBD or V O IBD.
Amber Tresca 0:32
My guest is Adam Finkelstein, a medical student and author who was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis when he was two years old. He had a serious flare up at age 12, which led to a collect to me with J pouch creation. His journey through ulcerative colitis and J pouch surgery have led him to develop a resilient mindset. Part of his philosophy includes focusing on what he can control rather than the many things that he can’t.
Amber Tresca 0:57
His experiences and growing up living with IBD led him to write and illustrate a children’s book up and Adam a patient’s experience on winning with IBD. Stick around for the end, where Adam gives five tips for helping kids develop positive associations with going to the doctor, which included building trust with health care professionals being honest about what to expect during appointments and creating a comfortable environment for kids.
Amber Tresca 1:24
Adam, thank you so much for coming on About IBD it’s great to meet you.
Adam Finkelstein 1:28
Thank you for having me on Amber’s really excited to talk.
Amber Tresca 1:30
Oh, yeah, absolutely. We have so much to get to. But first, can you just give a brief introduction?
Adam Finkelstein 1:36
Yes, I’m Adam Finkelstein. And I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis when I was two years old. And I had my colon removed when I was 12. And now I’m a 25 year old medical student.
Amber Tresca 1:45
Okay, that’s a lot. First off just from the very beginning. That’s a lot. So let tell me about when you were diagnosed, you know, obviously, you said you were to you were a toddler. It’s so little. Do you remember anything from that time? Or what do your parents say about that time?
Adam Finkelstein 2:04
I don’t remember much from that time. But I was talking to my parents about it recently. And they said that the first presenting symptom was blood in the stool where I was otherwise feeling well. And then we went to the local pediatrician. And the pediatrician knew that something was wrong, but couldn’t tell what. And luckily, the local children’s hospital was a major Children’s Hospital who specialized in IBD. And so we went to that hospital. And that took about six months to be diagnosed.
Amber Tresca 2:31
So six months. I mean, why did it take? Do you think six months? Were they just trying to figure out exactly what it was? Did they have an idea as to what it was? And they were trying to narrow it down? Or? Or do you even know, because you were so young, you obviously don’t remember anything,
Adam Finkelstein 2:46
I don’t remember what my parents were saying was they were doing a lot of tests to rule out other things. And from medical school, what I’ve learned is in certain age groups, you look at certain diseases first, and you try to rule out based on what you know, is most common, and because ulcerative colitis is so rare at that age, yeah, I imagined that wasn’t on their radar at first, and they had to really rule out a lot of other things to get to that diagnosis.
Amber Tresca 3:09
Right, right. I’m feeling a lot of empathy for your parents, six months at two years old to not know what was going on. That really sounds like a lot to go through. I’m a mother myself. So I can’t imagine having to deal with that. So you were dealing with ulcerative colitis, basically, your whole life? So take me through what that was like for you to be dealing with this diagnosis as a child as a teenager? And what was it like? How did it affect your ability to go to school? And how did it affect your social life and having friends?
Adam Finkelstein 3:43
What was interesting was that because I was diagnosed so young, I didn’t know any different, really. And I kind of also assumed that everyone else is going through something similar than me. And one example My parents always bring up is, when I was on a playground at recess, I asked one of my best friends, why didn’t see him at the nurse’s office to get medicine every day at lunchtime. And he got kind of confused. And it was just because I assumed everyone got medicine at lunchtime. And that’s kind of my attitude about it, where there’s a lots of challenges that we faced with it. But all I knew was just how to come up with ways to overcome those challenges.
Amber Tresca 4:17
Yeah, it’s so interesting that your perspective, being that young, was that this life, what you were dealing with was sort of normal, or on a spectrum of normal. And I’m thinking about my own experiences as a parent. And the idea that you might have to explain that not everybody is living with the condition. Like it might not even occur to you to even discuss that. Did you? Did you come home and talk about that experience with your parents? How come my friend doesn’t take any medicine?
Adam Finkelstein 4:51
I don’t remember if we ever talked about it. It’s more in hindsight, my parents don’t bring it up as something funny that I did. But I do think that Yeah, no. And then when I heard it, I was surprised, too. But I do think that being diagnosed so young, and having that mindset of everybody else is the same helped a lot. Because for example, when I would go get my blood drawn, I was indifferent to it, because to me, it was just another thing to do. And only as I got older, and I realized, oh, wow, it’s actually a brave thing for a six year old to get blood drawn and not be surprised by it, then actually look forward to getting blood drawn and look forward to going to the doctor because I felt brave during it. And I could show off to the nurse and a phlebotomist how brave I was by not really reacting to it.
Amber Tresca 5:33
And and you kind of sound a little bit like you were trying to please your the staff. Do you think that that’s true? That you were trying to be a good patient?
Adam Finkelstein 5:43
Yeah, yes, I think so.
Amber Tresca 5:46
So you did end up having surgery. So how did that all come about? What What age were you first off when you had surgery?
Adam Finkelstein 5:55
I was 12 when I had surgery, which was the end of sixth grade. And I remember I had a flare up for two weeks. And then I missed two weeks of school, and I was starting to get better. And so I went to school for one day. And then I started getting sicker again. And so my pediatric gastroenterologist said that I should come in for an appointment, and maybe bring one set of clothes in case I had to stay overnight for being for monitoring. And then one night turned into a week, and that I needed a PICC line for nutrients because I wasn’t able to eat. And then after 25 days is when I had the surgery, just because we’re trying a lot of different medicines that weren’t working, and surgery would have been their best option.
Amber Tresca 6:36
Did that happen very often that you were told maybe bring a change of clothes with you to the hospital or to an appointment?
Adam Finkelstein 6:43
No, that was the first time I think I was hospitalized when I was very young, maybe two or three years old, besides the diagnosis, and that was the next hospitalization was any choice.
Amber Tresca 6:55
Yeah, and so 12 — I have a 12 year old. And so coming to that decision to have surgery, do you think it was a function of nothing was working and that you were sort of deteriorating? It sounds a little bit like your hand almost got forced? Do you know what I’m saying that it wasn’t necessarily the path that you imagined yourself to be on? Had anybody talked to you about surgery prior to coming up with this last flare up that you had?
Adam Finkelstein 7:27
Not that I remember, I don’t remember worrying about what it asked me was for the first time ever, but I don’t remember being overly surprised. I think at that time, I just wanted to get better. Yeah. And so I do remember a couple of days before the procedure, I was asking if it could get moved up. Because I just I knew it would help the symptoms and heal the symptoms. And it was only a couple of days away. But I was really looking forward to the procedure, because I knew would help.
Amber Tresca 7:52
Oh, for sure. How many steps did you have? How many surgeries did you end up having?
Adam Finkelstein 7:57
I had three had the first one and may the second one sometime over the summer? And then 2010. And then the third one around October?
Amber Tresca 8:06
How did you feel after the first surgery? Did you feel better when you woke up?
Adam Finkelstein 8:10
I did I think I think groggy waking up from surgery.
Amber Tresca 8:15
Adam Finkelstein 8:15
I remember one big thing was that the doctor said to walk after surgery. Yeah, and walking would get you home sooner and get you to sports sooner. And I really took that to heart. And I remember when I woke up, I tried to stand from the chair with the help of my dad and a nurse. And it’s kind of like a Harry Potter one of the scenes where he loses all the bones in his arm from the epidural if this would have given way, but I was being held up.
Adam Finkelstein 8:41
But I really wanted to walk. So then I asked the pain team to come and change the epidural on their positioning or dosage. And so that was able to walk after that. And kind of all the little things like that really made a big difference in their recovery and just having the right attitude about it. I think got me home sooner. The middle of surgery was the think weirdest going into it. Yeah, because the first one you’re going into it and you come out healthy.
Adam Finkelstein 9:05
And the third one, you go in to it with an ostomy. And then you come out with that one. And the second one, you’re kind of going into it healthy with an ostomy. And you come out healthy with an ostomy. But you just have to think about what’s it just one step in the progression and then the takedown will happen at some point.
Amber Tresca 9:22
Right? It’s kind of a lot and I always describe it to people after my colectomy, like waking up and feeling better. And it’s really wild to think about that you could go through surgery and have a collected me and wake up feeling better than when you went into the surgery. So it’s a really bizarre situation. But when your colon is making you that sick, that is how you wake up and I find it so interesting that you were directing your care at 12 years old. You’re telling people but also that’s really amazing. You knew what you wanted, you knew what you needed, and you communicated that to everybody I like it. Have you thought about it in that way that that’s what you were actually doing?
Adam Finkelstein 10:04
Yes. I guess in hindsight I have, I didn’t realize it at the time. But it’s on reflection. One thing I realized is that when you’re sick or when you’re dealing with really any challenge medical or not, there’s things that you can act on and things that you can’t act on, at the things that you can act on, you have to do your best. But if you can’t do anything about it, then you have to make the best of it. And I think that was the strategy that I had, then and then what challenges I face now?
Amber Tresca 10:51
So it’s not surprising, I think now that you are a medical student, given your background, that’s, that’s not easy. I think that’s fair to say, maybe that’s a complete and utter understatement that it is not easy to go to medical school for healthy people, let alone for someone who is living with an illness. So how have you managed this so far? What are your tips for anybody who is considering the same?
Adam Finkelstein 11:18
That’s a great question. And for me, I had been pretty much asymptomatic since my surgeries back in 2010, until a couple of years ago. And I would later find out that at the end of my first year, I had a stricture, which is a narrowing of the intestine.
Adam Finkelstein 11:32
And now it’s causing a lot of symptoms, and making it harder to go to the bathroom, for example, and Toby going very frequently, throughout my first year, and it helped being on Zoom. Because there were in person activities that I wasn’t able to do. But I could do a lot of activities and a lot of clubs or create clubs, from my computer, which was helpful.
Adam Finkelstein 11:51
And really, time management is important, because you never know when the symptoms can come up. And so it’s important to take advantage of when you are feeling healthy, and getting as much done as possible. So that if you’re not feeling good, you can nap instead, I relied on napping a lot in the afternoon. If I wasn’t feeling well say get me through for a push later in the evening.
Amber Tresca 12:11
Right. You know, that’s so interesting that you describe it in that way. I think a lot of us operate that way. I know for myself, that is absolutely what I have to do, because I freelance. So I definitely need to always be a day ahead of everything. Because I never know if I’m going to wake up one day and just not be be doing well. But it like it just seems like in medical school. Like I just can’t imagine managing all of that and trying to be one step ahead all of the time. And then you had this stricture. Was it something that was a result of your surgeries? The structure? Or you know, what did what did they say? How did you find it by the way?
Adam Finkelstein 12:53
Well, we thought it despite the kind of rectal exam it had on some scopes. The scope had had some trouble getting through. And I’m not sure and the doctors don’t really know what caused it. But our guess is that, because I had surgery when I was so young, that my body grew and the surgical site may not have if there was scar tissue. And so it stayed at about that same size. Right? And that could have been the cause. Right?
Amber Tresca 13:17
Right. That makes sense. Do you ever think about that, about the idea that you had surgery when you were young? And I don’t know what the universe is of ages on people having surgery. But I would say from my own experience, I’ve only met a couple of people that had J pouch surgery when they were teens or or younger? Do you ever think about the longevity of your pouch and how things might change as you get older?
Adam Finkelstein 13:43
I sometimes do. It’s not at the forefront of my mind because I know I can’t control it at all. But especially when I was symptomatic. I wasn’t sure if the pouch was failing or not. And so we were trying a lot of different medicines and they weren’t working. And it seemed like dilating the stricture was the very last step before potentially a surgical consultation.
Adam Finkelstein 14:04
And so that was something that was I was thinking about. But then I guess, one way I think of all these challenges, and whether it’s medicine or not, is that kind of how you feel and the confidence you should have, should come from knowing your ability to handle the disease, rather than the outcome of the disease or trying to predict the outcome of the disease. Because you can control how you think of what’s going on.
Adam Finkelstein 14:30
But oftentimes, even though you can influence the outcome by taking the medicines and doing what the doctor says, Some parts are out of your control. And so if you can really think about put your energy towards what you can actually do, that helps. And I knew that if I ever did need surgery, I couldn’t do anything about changing it. So I might as well just make the best of what’s to come. And I’m confident in my ability to handle a challenge that could come up and I think that helped guide me through.
Amber Tresca 14:57
Do you ever look back on what you You’ve already lived through and experienced and think to yourself, well, I made it through all of that. So whatever comes next is gonna be a piece of cake.
Adam Finkelstein 15:07
Yeah, definitely. And if a challenge comes up, I’ll tell people instead of thinking, like, oh, no, this is going to be tough. Or oh, no, how can I do this? It’s important to think, oh, it’s gonna be really impressive when I’m on the other side of this looking back.
Amber Tresca 15:22
I love that. That’s really great. Oh, my gosh, I’m gonna take that to heart. When I think about these things for myself. So all right, you’re in medical school now. But But what’s next? What comes after medical school? I know a lot of times people are thinking about specialty as they’re rotating through the the different disciplines of medical school, what are your thoughts on that?
Adam Finkelstein 15:44
So I’ve always been interested in either pediatric surgery or colorectal surgery, because of my experiences. And I was able to rotate on both of those last year. And so I think I’m interested in the surgical side. And after medical school would be residency, which is you’re a doctor and you’re training in a narrower field. And so after medical school, I think, as of now, I’m interested in a surgical residency. And then from there, I could narrow it even further to colorectal or pediatric or anything else that catches my eye.
Amber Tresca 16:15
Has it ever happened that anyone tried to discourage you from taking this route and going into medicine? Or Has Has everyone been supportive?
Adam Finkelstein 16:26
Everyone has been supportive, especially my doctors, which has been really helpful. And one of my pediatric surgeon is incredible. And he helped me get a research position in his department when I was in college. And I got to go to a lot of the clinical meetings. And so it was really neat to see both sides of it. And he would lead some of the clinical meetings, I could see how they went. And that really persuaded me also.
Amber Tresca 16:48
Wow, that’s amazing. I love that. Do you think that your own experiences as a patient will have a significant influence on how you decide to practice medicine? Are there things that you’re going to incorporate as you go forward?
Adam Finkelstein 17:01
I think so. And one question I was asked doctors is how much should I tell patients about my condition? And I’ll get usually sometimes varied responses. But I think what I’m going to be doing least a start is to only tell patients who are really in need of hearing it. And when I was on the rotations, there were some patients that I could tell if I mentioned it, they wouldn’t get anything out of it. But there were one or two that I would talk to them about it. And I could tell that they really understood it. And they really helped by connecting with someone.
Amber Tresca 17:32
Right, for sure. I think that’s right, I think telling the difference might be, like you said, Knowing when someone needs to hear it might be the might be the biggest factor there. But I also think that when you are a physician who has been through living with a chronic illness, it is definitely going to make you a more compassionate physician in in some ways or make you think about things in in a different way.
Amber Tresca 17:59
So it’s very exciting to me that you’ve decided to go into this field, especially if you decide to go into pediatrics, you do seem to have an affinity for it. And I’m saying that based on your book, you’re an author, you wrote a book called up and Adam, a patient’s experience on winning with IBD. So tell me first I have lots of questions about your book. But what made you decide to, to write it and to illustrate it as well.
Adam Finkelstein 18:28
I chose to write the book because when I was around the time I surgeries, there was a book that the nurses made at the hospital called What the heck is an ileostomy? I think?
Amber Tresca 18:38
The title wasn’t actually what the heck…
Adam Finkelstein 18:41
Yes, yeah, sure.
Amber Tresca 18:45
Okay, that’s amazing. All right. Go ahead.
Adam Finkelstein 18:47
Yeah, pause you and definitely write the book were pictures of young kids, and maybe a one sentence quote saying, I like to play soccer now. And I’m healthy after having the surgery. And I thought it was really neat to see what other kids were doing, and about their experiences. And I want to know more, because it was just that one sentence. And so when I was in my first year of college, I wanted to create a resource like that. And so I wrote the book, my first year of college, and it took maybe a couple of years to draw it because I would work on a page or two every couple of days, but crayon because I really want it to be relatable. And that’s as much as I skills would take me.
Amber Tresca 19:27
No, I love it. I can tell that it took a lot of time. I have it here with me. I’ve been reading it. It took a lot of time to do the illustrations. Like it’s very clear to me that it did. It’s been a lot of fun for me to read the book and to go through it and to learn a little bit about you through reading it and then also see how you have approached things and how you can take your experiences in coping with all of these things in a kind of a very mentally healthy way. And then try to bring other people into it as well. Other families
Amber Tresca 19:59
Because I think that the things that you’re describing don’t won’t always come naturally to people. And there’s no you know, you bring your baby home from the hospital and there’s no handbook, there’s no nothing, they didn’t give you a What the heck do I do with this baby book for sure. So I think dealing with a chronic illness, having something like this for parents is going to be really, really impactful.
Amber Tresca 20:43
I love the way that your parents approached, treating your illness. And so you actually have come up with five tips, five tenants for helping kids develop positive associations for going to the doctor, I think this is going to be really impactful for kids with chronic illness. But I think actually, it’s just good for any kid because you do have to go to the doctor sometimes. And guess what they give you injections and other things. And it is not the most fun. And so they end up not wanting to go to the doctor and I don’t blame them.
Amber Tresca 21:16
So I wonder Adam, if you would take me through your five tips for helping kids develop positive associations with going to the doctor. Let’s start with with tip number one. What’s tip number one?
Adam Finkelstein 21:29
Great. Tip number one was listening to your favorite music or radio on the way to the hospital. And I would always have doctor’s appointments on Tuesday mornings, and I got to go to school a little bit later, I got to listen to my favorite music on the radio. And so that was always something I would look forward to just the little break.
Adam Finkelstein 21:47
Tip number two was having a favorite snack or meal after going to the doctor. In my case, the hospital had a bakery where I love their chocolate chip cookies. And so I would always associate the doctor with these cookies. And I knew what was coming whenever I would go.
Adam Finkelstein 22:02
Number three is to visit the cool parts of the hospital where oftentimes children’s hospitals will have a lot of cool artwork or machines, where my hospital had what’s called a Rube Goldberg or a ball machine where there’s balls flowing through this big structure and making lots of noise. And I’d always like to look at it and watch or it had a big fish tank also which I would watch the fishes. And when I go back to the hospital when I’m older, I can hear little kids yelling I can see Nemo because there’s clownfish. And
Amber Tresca 22:34
Of course there is, Yeah.
Adam Finkelstein 22:36
Yeah, of course there is. What a coincidence, and a sports jersey. So I’d like to watch those.
Adam Finkelstein 22:43
The next tip number four is reminding kids of how brave they are. And it’s a lot to deal with. And sometimes kids might not realize how much they’re going through and how much or how brave they actually are in facing it. And so just that positive reinforcement of you are doing a great job. And you should be proud about how you’re facing it really is important.
Adam Finkelstein 23:04
And then the last tip is to form trusted and close relationships with physicians. And I want to go to the doctor to see my doctor and to talk to my doctor because I knew I’d be listened to. And I knew that he really cared about what was going on. And I never associated going to the hospital with being sick. But I’d always associate going to the hospital with an opportunity to feel better. And I think that’s really important because the doctor is very comforting. And he also had a toy that he would give me after every session. So that was helpful, too.
Amber Tresca 23:36
It was just a party from beginning to end going to the doctor, go to the hospital for you.
Adam Finkelstein 23:41
Amber Tresca 23:43
Do you think your parents played a role in this as well? Like, how did your parents I know they were the ones that were, you know, turning on the favorite music? They were the ones taking you for a cookie? Or maybe other things afterward? How did they approach things? Were they showing you like a positive attitude when you were on the way like I imagine that this was very intentional for them. Have they described the process for you at all.
Adam Finkelstein 24:09
They haven’t described it, but I think they kind of normalized what we were doing where I never like thought anything of it because they were always there and supportive. And one big scene in the book is now as an elementary school, I’d be stuck on the toilet during flare ups.
Adam Finkelstein 24:25
Instead of just sitting there by myself, my dad would go by the door, and we would tell stories about superhero animals. And that would pass the time. And then one time when I was out for a couple of weeks, my classmates are learning about multiplication and addition. And so he said, Oh, instead of telling stories, why don’t we do some math, I’ll give you some problems and teach you how to do them. And so I learned how to do that type of math because he was there to help.
Adam Finkelstein 24:50
And my mom would be the ones that take me to all the appointments and usually advocate for me. If there are any questions with the doctors and just seeing how they’re committed. They both were was very helpful.
Amber Tresca 25:01
Yeah, that’s amazing. So you learned your multiplication tables while you were on the toilet? Essentially?
Adam Finkelstein 25:07
Yeah, pretty much.
Amber Tresca 25:11
Oh, that’s very funny. Well, they sound like amazing people. I mean, it does seem like they took they saw you through this process in such a way that it has led you to want to go into medicine because you want to continue to pass along everything that you’ve learned along your journey and the way that you all have handled it in a very positive way. Because I think it’s it’s easy to fall into other traps, and to not come through it in such a healthy way.
Amber Tresca 25:41
So hats off to your parents, mom and dad.
Adam Finkelstein 25:44
Yes they’re incredible.
Amber Tresca 25:47
All right. As I was doing my research, prior to speaking with you, I was lovingly going through all of the information that I could find about you on the interwebs. So I’ve a question about one of your jobs, Adam.
Adam Finkelstein 26:02
Amber Tresca 26:04
Turns out that you used to you’ve had a lot of jobs. But you used to scoop ice cream? Yes, I did. I liked first of all, scooping ice cream, having any kind of a service job when you’re living with an IBD I think is a little difficult for a variety of reasons. But I’m wondering, do you have any stories about that job? Is there anything that you can tell me about it? What was it like to scoop ice cream? Although I imagine it’s not that bad, because you’re giving people ice cream. So how bad could that be? Right? But tell me a little bit about that job.
Adam Finkelstein 26:36
Oh, yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was in New England. And so even in the winter, when it’s snowing outside the line still out the door? Yeah. So it was really fun with the customers and seeing the kids after school come in. There’s a lot of good flavors. Also, like green monster was the mint flavor, mint with Oreo and fudge. I remember that was a good one. And so it was a really good time working at this store and working with friends.
Amber Tresca 26:57
I live in New England. So yes, even when it is cold out, we still go for ice cream. So tell me, where can folks find “Up and Adam”? Where can we get this book?
Adam Finkelstein 27:10
Yes, the book is on the Barnes and Noble website. And you can go to it on the website by searching my name, Adam Finkelstein. And I think you can also search up an atom. And all the profits from the book are donated to IBD organizations.
Amber Tresca 27:23
That is amazing. I want to thank you so much for putting all of this together. And you’re right. There’s not a lot of books out there for kids, and especially kids who are living with IBD. And I love practical solutions and practical tips. So the idea of your book and the way that you go about it, and that you show how you handled things. And it gives ideas to other people so that they can handle things in a similar way. So I really appreciate all the work that you’ve that you’ve done on this.
Amber Tresca 27:54
Thank you so much for coming on about IBD. I appreciate your time. And I’m really looking forward to seeing you know where you go from here and what you do after medical school. So thank you so much, Adam.
Adam Finkelstein 28:07
Thank you, Amber for having me on. I really appreciate it. It was great to talk with you.
Amber Tresca 28:17
Hey, super listener.
Amber Tresca 28:18
Thanks to Adam Finkelstein for sharing his journey and giving us some really actionable ideas about how kids and adults with chronic illnesses can reframe their experiences in a more positive way. You can find up and Adam a patient’s experience on winning with IBD at Barnes and Noble. I will put the link to order the book in the show notes. And remember, profit from the sales of up and Adam will support IBD organizations.
Amber Tresca 28:43
If you’re looking to get in touch with Adam because I don’t know for instance, you’d like to offer his book in your hospital or clinic. I’ll put his email in the show notes, links to a written transcript, everyone’s social media handles and more information on the topics we discussed is in the show notes and on my episode 130 page on AboutIBD.com.
Amber Tresca 29:05
You can follow me, Amber Tresca, across all social media as About IBD. Thanks for listening, and remember, until next time, I want you to know more about IBD.
Amber Tresca 29:19
About IBD is a production of Mal and Tal Enterprises. It is written, produced and directed by me, Amber Tresca.
Amber Tresca 29:27
Mix and sound design is by Mac Cooney.
Amber Tresca 29:30
Theme music is from Cooney Studio.